What Do You Miss?

Ok here’s a question for the missionary church planters of this world…

What do you miss about where you have come from five people you meet in heaven the divx download ?

What was there about church as you used to do it that you would like to inject into this current expression?

For me, its a greater diversity of ages, especially the presence of some old people – the 70 + types. We have no one over 49 in our community and I sense we are the poorer for it. I have been praying for several months now for an older couple/s to come and join us because I feel we are missing their wisdom and experience as well as the (often) very unselfish nature that is common to that generation.

It struck me again as I spent the morning preaching at Como Baptist and bumped into a bunch of older people.

They see the world differently. They are often quaint, sometimes dottery and occasionally even a pain in the butt, but I feel my life is poorer because I don’t have as many old people in it at the moment. As well as what they give to me, they also force me to enter their world and grow me in the process.

I miss the old people and would love a few up here!

A Heretic’s Guide to Eternity Part III

Pages 100-150…

Page 107 ” No one recorded Jesus words at the time he spoke them, so we have no proof that they are indeed his words and what he did say, he said in Aramaic, which means that nothing in the Bible as translated into other language can be take literally anyway.”

If I could summarise the content of this section in one sentence it would be ‘we can’t know anything for sure’.

Much of what is here is both a critique of the institutional church described as ‘a post office in an email world’ (I like the analogy) as well as a questioning of how we arrive at our epistemology.

As Spencer notes in his comment on the previous post it is easy to pull out random quotes and make him say things that maybe he didn’t intend, or make him look even more of a heretic than he declares himself to be. Always poor form to do that to someone!

However that said, he does certainly push the boundaries in these 50 pages and I am not satisfied with his conclusions. I will try to be fair to him as I write and I’m sure he will feel free to interact if he feels misrepresented.

As well as ‘we can’t know anything for sure’, (my interpretation

see page 140) Burke also seems to be arguing that the main game is following Jesus and we don’t need to be Christians to do that. I can buy that, with no problem at all, because my overseas missionary friends will speak to me of ‘muslims’ (culturally) who follow Jesus (a C5 on the contextualisation spectrum) but I am not sure just what Spencer means by following Jesus…

This is where the dissection of language can be used both ways. If we don’t know what Jesus really meant by ‘I am the way truth and life. No one comes to the father but thru me’ then how can we know what he means by a more vague statement like ‘follow me’?

Does he mean, ‘be like me?’ Does he mean ‘do the things I do?’ Does he mean ‘admire me?’ And if we aren’t sure which parts of scripture are reliable (and scripture is our guide for following Jesus) then how do we know which bits to act on?…

I believe there is much good in the concept of ‘following Jesus’, but divorced from a commitment to the authority of scripture and the truths we have gleaned from Christian history in the form of the creeds it becomes a very nebulous statement in my opinion.

While I agree with Spencer that modernism has been overly propositional in its understanding of the gospel, a pendulum swing in the opposite direction is not what I would see as the answer. Paul seemed quite concerned to articulate his theology and if its important enough for him to do this then it would seem that at least some basic form of theologising would be important to us also.

Just for the record Spencer also says ‘he doesn’t not believe the Bible, it informs his faith in Jesus’ (p. 109) and he ‘does not believe all roads lead to God’. (p. 127)

Some other thoughts:

P.126 “When Jesus was talking about being the way, I don’t think he was talking about religion” Fully agree!

P. 131 – Spencer addresses the atonement question… and I’m not quite sure what he thinks. He states that an over-emphasis on substitution negates the other aspects of the atonement. But does he see substitution/penal atonement as acceptable? Not sure

P. 142 in relational to ‘spiritual bricolage’, i think the concept has some merit, but I am concerned that Spencer ditches the potential to be able to know and describe anything with certainty.

In this section Spencer calls us to think outside the box – to go ‘beyond Zebra’ – which is good – but, I think there is plenty within the box that is good also. I am less reticent to view the institutional church with such negativity.

To be honest, at times I do see it in a very negative light as it hinders much of what is central to the gospel, but by the same token it seems that everything has a tendency to go this way and there is also much good accomplished (think Tsunami aid) by institutions.

My concern here is less the critique of institution and more the question over the place and value of scripture which I see as integral to shaping faith and discipleship.

Youth Alive – What Do You Think?

A friend of mine who is also a local youth pastor, wrote to me recently and asked what people were feeling regards the whole Youth Alive scene here in WA.

I suggested he post here and we could discuss it. So here is his email:

G’day guys, I’m looking for youth pastors/leaders feedback on thoughts of Youth Alive and the content/ approach of their outreach events over the last couple of years. I have the organizers permission to do this so feel free to post what you think is the good the bad and the ugly. This information will be used to start a dialogue with the organizers to hopefully “edify the body of Christ”

So far I have heard alot of reserved enthusiasm, cynicism, criticism or total support. Post your thoughts and let your views influence the largest culture of youth ministry in WA

Regards

Chris Green

Youth Pastor Mounty Church (Mount Hawthorn Baptist)

So there you have it.

What do you reckon about the impact Youth Alive is having on the young people of Perth? I am interested in some decent discussion.

BTW – If you just want to be rude and offensive (as some are prone to be) then go somewhere else because I will delete your comment.

five across the eyes online

simple plan a dvd download

The Heretic’s Guide to Eternity Part II

Pages 50-100… (warning – this was written with a shocking headache so nonsense is to be expected)

Reviewing 50 pages at a time is probably a lousy way to review a book, but its the best I can do right now with all else that is going on around about.

I am also aware that Scot McKnight has taken Spencer’s book to task on a number of items, but I’m choosing not to read Scot’s point of view until I have read it for myself. As a hack ‘backyard’ theologian I am likely to be influenced by people smarter than me so I am keen to let my own brain do some work here.

Whatever I end up saying about this book I appreciate that Burke has been willing to go public with some stuff that may be dodgy. He has had the courage to put his own thoughts out there for scrutiny – and who knows – if he’s onto something we all win. If he’s not then I reckon he may be gracious enough to accept the critique and cop it on the chin.

Ok onto the book…

I find myself waiting for the punchline… waiting for what Burke believes that is heretical and going to cause me to react. I’m not sure if it has come out yet or not.

So far he has offered some thoughts on religion, spirituality and grace, but I have found his definitions of each a bit fuzzy and open to interpretation. I generally choose to believe the best about people unless I am convinced otherwise, so I am still waiting… not yet convinced either way…

On p.52 he poses an interesting question regarding grace “is it something you get rather than something you already have?”

It picks up on the question of what happens to little kids who die. We would presume God would treat them justly and based on their ability to respond. The question that emerges is ‘at what point does this change – and what changes it?’

In this section he also contrasts religion and spirituality suggesting that religion has been institutionalised, is prescriptive and restricts people in how they enter and express faith while spirituality is much more open and embracing and suited to a post-modern climate. He’s probably right on most of that, but as I read it I couldn’t help feeling that ‘spirituality’ felt like shaky ground in which to earth my faith. While I completely agree that religion has its bad points, it has also helped to establish the boundary markers of orthodoxy. Spirituality as Burke describes it seems to pay less attention to orthodoxy or the things we have learnt previously.

It does sound a little like ‘religion = bad; spirituality = good’

I also placed a large question mark on page 61 where Burke says ‘Grace tells us there is nothing we need to do to find relationship with the divine. The relationship is already there we only need to nurture it.’ I am open to hearing more of his thoughts on this, because we are obviously created in God’s image, but we are also born sinful. How does this work?

On page 64 Burke suggests that ‘although the link between grace and sin has driven Christianity for centuries it just doesn’t resonate in our culture any more. It repulses rather than attracts’. I can’t buy this one. For people who know they are sinners then surely grace is as good as it gets!? It sounds here like accomodation of culture.

A question: are ‘grace’ and ‘religion’ mutually exclusive or do they intersect at some point/s?

The next section of the book begins entitled ‘Questioning What We Know – New Horizons of Faith’

Burke goes on to list 6 shifts in our religious world that affect how we express faith:

1. Pluralism

2. Emergence of a non-religious, non-institutional way of living out faith

3. Individualisation

4. The ‘this-worldliness’ of new spirituality

5. Holistic rather than dualistic spirituality

6. Service is no longer the exclusive domain of the church

Burke describes the system of indulgences where people bought they way into favour with God – that the church had turned grace into a marketable commodity. I think he is suggesting that indulgences are not dead but rather have morphed into religious behaviours – some of which are financial, but not exclusively. The church is still the domain of grace and we feel the need to enter thru it.

Burke writes that the church is no longer resonating with the culture and people ‘want a transforming spirituality that gives their life shape and meaning. The currency of the church has to change.’ (p. 91) Its a challenge to know where we resonate and where we conflict. I think he is right in that what we offer so often is a pre-packaged dull and domesticated institutional religion when people seek a vibrant faith. (he would say ‘spirituality’)

So far I am hearing Burke say that religious institutions inhibit people from encountering the life of grace that Jesus offers. But if we think in terms of spirituality then we can more easily encounter that grace and offer it to the world.

On the off chance you are reading this Spencer, am I representing you fairly here?

Ok… that’s enough for one night!

Did I Make the Right Choice?…

Yesterday I designed the flyer for this upcoming forum on ‘results in the emerging church’.

I wasn’t sure which image to use and these were the two I was toying with. I tried using them both, but the final product looked too cluttered, so I went with the ‘clean bowled’ pic rather than the ‘Matt Haydn century’ pic.

Every pic tells a story… My choice was very intentional.

But… Did I choose the right one?

What do you think?

I have already had some feedback on it…

(Americans – you will need to think ‘struck out’ v ‘home run’)

Where are the results in experimental missional communities?

Coming up shortly will be an open forum for local West Ozzies who want to know just what is being achieved in experimental mission. I sent this email out today…

———————————————-

I’m sure you are aware that over the last few years there has been plenty of attention given to what is known as the ’emerging church’.

Some see it as the hope of the future, some as a heretical movement of disgruntled de-churched post-moderns, while others would argue that it is a complement to the ongoing work of the church in the west and a prophetic voice calling us back to core missionary principles.

No prizes for guessing which of those I lean towards!

However you see it the question that usually gets asked of us in the experimental / pioneering arena is ‘where are the runs on the board?’ or ‘where are the results of these missional experiments?’

These are fair questions and we would like to address them in an open forum where the Forge WA crew can share some their own experiences and those present can hear what is actually happening in experimental mission projects.

So this is my invite to you, to come and join us from 10-12 AM on September 21st at the Warehouse Café (Onslow Rd Shenton Park). FORGE WA will cover the expenses for the morning as we discuss together what is being achieved and what results we can point to.

I’m sure it will be a valuable time and I hope it will add to your understanding of how new missional communities are functioning. We expect that the format will allow for 4 or 5 leaders to share briefly (10 mins) how they answer the ‘runs on the board’ question, followed by brief interaction and then the remainder of the time will be open for dialogue.

We have sensed a need to hold a forum of this nature, but RSVPs are essential to let us know how best to structure the morning. If you could either respond to this email or call Kent Morgan at SU 94435055 by Sept 14th that would be great.

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What will it achieve?…

Hopefully if nothing else we will hear each other and those asking the questions will know how we are answering them.

Dr Google diagnoses PLMD

It seems there is a syndrome/condition for everything!

The last two nights Danelle has had to get up from our bed and sleep in the spare room. I haven’t been naughty – but I have been ‘twitching’ in my sleep.

My legs move when I sleep often in a rhythmic kind of a way (so I’m told), but also with a jerkiness that makes the bed shudder and hence wakes her up.

Its started to become a problem so I went to my good friend ‘google’ and typed in ‘what causes twitching in your sleep?‘ and discovered a whole world out there of sleep twitchers!

There is PLMD (period limb movement disorder) and also RLS (restless leg syndrome) both with similar symptoms and as you may have guessed no proven cure… These are kinda nocturnal versions of irritable bowel syndrome!

Its a funny world when you can get online and self diagnose with some degree of accuracy and bypass the doctor (yes I know I shouldn’t do it as a practice) but the problem remains and I’m not sure there is much can be done…

Ironically people with this syndrome are supposed to wake up tired, or need naps during the day. That has never been the case for me. Its usually Danelle who needs the nap because I keep her awake!showtime movie

Free book hot off the press

Ok – so its not quite like that…

But if you haven’t been to Scot McKnight’s ‘Jesus Creed’ blog then you are seriously missing out on some of the best stuff on the web. Scot is a well known Christian author and professor who writes prolifically online on issues of theology and ecclesiology in a changing world.

Its great stuff and its like having a new chapter of a book every day – without having to pay for it.

I can’t keep up with all that Scot writes (and getting thru the comments is another issue again), but if you want to read some of the latest thinking from a bona fide theologian (as opposed to a bakcyard hack) without having to wait for it to get to the publisher, get edited etc then check out Scot’s blog.