Its a question I am pondering at the moment, following a conversation with some friends on Friday night.
I have always been taught that ‘mediums’ do not draw on the actual spirits of the people but simply access other spirits who masquerade as such.
But… as I was reading 1 Samuel last week I came across this passage which got me thinking again:
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, “As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.”
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
So – the questions are:
– who was Saul seeing?
– who do practicing mediums see today when they try to ‘call up dead people’?
I read some info regarding this that I thought was pretty relevant which basically said — there’s no way to know for sure if it was really Samual or not, but he (Charles H Welch) made the point that Saul never actually saw Samual he only assumed it was him, and just because what was said was true doesnt mean that it had to be Samual (he refered to the new testement and the girl that was following the disciples in Acts 16 stating truths – but it still came from an evil spirit.) He also quoted some scripture refering to when people die they “know not anything” in the grave…he said a bit more, but I wont take up any more room.
The accuracy of readings by recent mediums keeps me from dismissing them all as charlatans. What I do question is inferring any particular meaning from messages from those who have passed. There is a common assumption that “They have passed on, so now they see everything clearly,” giving them godlike status. But why shouldn’t they be as flawed now as they were before? Who we are now matters in eternity.
I think a medium might have trouble communicating with someone like, say, C.S. Lewis. He might not be around to talk to! I would expect him to be running “farther up and farther in” into the depths of God. (But, I argue with myself, that could mean being involved with the things God is doing here.)
I read a book about a modern-day medium and blogged my thoughts.
I guess I always assumed it WAS Samuel and that meant that there is precedent for such a thing happening but just like there is precedent for people to actually “tell fortunes” it doesn’t mean we SHOULD be doing those things…divination can be a real person tapping into a real “spirit dimension” but it’s going against God’s good and perfect order.
As for if people call up the dead today? I think it’s possible … I esp. think of spiritism in other cultures… but I’m not sure it actually happens that often. I have always thought that demons could masquerade as dead people but I honestly have very little “proof” of that scripturally or otherwise.
We get a lot of these questions in our service…probably because this sort of spirituality is very prevalent in our community so I thank you for asking the question, I’m interested to hear others’ responses.
“When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense” It was Samuel.
Just because it was really Samuel, does not mean the medium, or any other medium could do this whenever they wanted. v 12 & 13 indicate the medium was suprised and afraid, almost like she could barely believe it was really Samuel herself.
Confer with Mark – I have a follow up thought. I wonder if this could go on before Christs death. He went down to Sheole (excuse spelling) to preach to the dead. And that post this there was a heaven and hell so spirits can’t be accessed. This is more speculation as there is no scriptures about this topic (that gives specifics) apart from this one.
hmm…another interesting one hamo.
I shall read up tonight and get back to you.
I guess I feel if God can talk through a donkey He can use whomever he chooses. I give the power to God here…
Samuels words are from God “God says”, so God is in it. Saul though thought he was going to find answers outside of God and went to seek a medium, however when he heard what Samuel had to say he knew it was from God, that is why for me he fell in fear. Also the medium was surprised, she got more than she bargained for…she conjured up nothing.
As for the whole other meduim stuff nah, I dont go for it at all. I say it is demonic. Here’s why;
My niece when she was 16 went to a clinic to see if she was pregnant, she was. She was really scared to tell her Mum. That same day her Mum went to a clairvoyant who told her that her daughter was pregnant! When my niece came home instead of receiving comfort from her Mum she received accusation and anger.
The enemy functions in the airwaves of the world, this is his kingdom. He is not ommnicient, omnipresnet nor omnipotent, but has a crew that hear and cause trouble. I believe just as the Holy Spirit can speak to people who know him so can the enemy to those that know him. Any power outside of God is in enemy lines as far as I am concerned whether they know it or not.
The Scripture of Lazarus wanting to return back to warn his friends clearly shows us that there is NO crossing over. If that is the case and we have only heaven and hell God and Satan then we are talking about hell and Satan. However having said that God allows it all and is in control of all. Shoot me now…
I…´m with Jen on this one.
Maybe GOD moved, seeing the medium’s actions. This purpose was to bring judgement on Saul. He asked for an apperition and got one.
There are two possibilites:
1. An image of Samuel to appeared.
2. GOD sent Samuel to give divine judgement on Saul.
I know it’s something we wonder about. But then I go to Deut 29:29. I guess there are some things we are just not meant to know about.
My question is not whether its ‘right or wrong’, but whether it was actualy Samuel.
Because if it was then it does add some cred to those who claim to be able to actually speak to the dead.
I think sometimes in our approach to people we can discredit the reality of the experience as much as we can disagree with it as a practice – and maybe reality is that it is very very real.
I’m still wondering, so would be interested in other reflections.
Just because the donkey spoke we cant say that this adds “cred” to the fact that donkeys can speak, anymore than we can take a random one off piece of scripture and see this as normative for all time that people can speak to the dead.
Quoting from Mark E. “”When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense” It was Samuel.” Yes it was Samuel, but it was God’s intervention not a conjuring trick. God does what God does.
What are these verses here for? What do they show us? The reality of this story is that when we go with the flesh as Saul did it is just a spiral downwards…when Saul again had the opportunity to repent before God he didnt, he got up and fed his flesh.
The genre of this book is OT Narrative not to be taken as theology or normative for all time. This is the story of salvation history, of God’s redeeming a people for his name, and we have to ask ourselves how this story fits into the rest of scripture. We cant major on the minors.
The NT story of Lazarus makes it clear to us that we cannot speak to nor bring up the dead, there is a separation.
There was obviously an issue with the spiritists and mediums because God wanted them removed from the land. Not because they were competition. The syncretistic way of the Israelites always got them into trouble. They wanted to practice the pagan rituals as well as embrace God. God is a jealous God and will have no other gods before Him. He wasnt threatened by their games he was jealous for their complete love and faithfulness.
Paul warns the people in Corinth to separate themselves from the pagan cults and not to be yoked with them. Its the same call throughout scripture to step away from the flesh and walk in the spirit.
Its not about whether they were real or not. Of course they arent, but they (spiritists and mediums) were/are demonized, making alliances with the satanic powers. The enemy is a liar and plays games with those who partner with him and believe his lies. However real and sanitized it looks today its the same thing. They are just dressed differently more appealing for this generation.
Quoting Jen:
“Just because the donkey spoke we cant say that this adds “cred” to the fact that donkeys can speak, anymore than we can take a random one off piece of scripture and see this as normative for all time that people can speak to the dead.”
Isn’t that exactly what you are doing here?
“The NT story of Lazarus makes it clear to us that we cannot speak to nor bring up the dead, there is a separation.”
As for my opinion, I don’t have any trouble believing it was really Samuel. I also don’t have any problem with bereaved people making use of the services of gifted mediums. I’ve often thought of doing it myself. Who says such a gift can’t come from God, that it must come from the kingdom of darkness?
As for my opinion, I don’t have any trouble believing it was really Samuel. I also don’t have any problem with bereaved people making use of the services of gifted mediums. I’ve often thought of doing it myself. Who says such a gift can’t come from God, that it must come from the kingdom of darkness?
I stumbled on your blog and had to reply. I feel the same as Jenno. I myself have gotten many of messages from the other side and have truly helped a lot of people with answers and with their grief. I have been judged by mij BIL who is a Jehova withness who claims it is all evil spirits trying to get me to their side. I said to him the following: If the evil spirits can bring so much joy to other people, so much love and healing to get me to their side, than so it be. I am not afraid about this because I believe in the Lord and his love and I am just a tool to bring messages accross to those in need for an answer.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
corinnexxx
Just so somebody is asking it, what is the purpose of the passage? Historically speaking, it gives no details like “it was really samuel” or “it was a demon” or anything like that, so the purpose of the passage must not be to give credence one way or the other. Ok. So maybe it’s trying to tell us something else instead of telling us what’s “ok” and “not ok”?