Do you reckon he could be onto something?!
“God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself.” (Life Together)
(from here)
I don’t question that God actually does give people visions & dreams. I wonder if Bonhoeffer is referring more to that kind of visionary dreaming where we conjure up an idea to justify our existence.
I remember as a pastor having to come up with a vision for the year when occasionally there was no ‘vision’ beyond keeping going on the same track. I do think some of what masquerades as visionary dreaming is the stuff Bonhoeffer writes about – our own ego needs being expressed in the form of a corporate vision. And when we don’t achieve the vision we do so easily blame the community, God or ourselves.
How do you know if your vision is from God or is just something that you would like to achieve – especially when there is an element of pressure to keep on coming up with ‘vision’?
my long time home church had an 8 year vision (2002-2010) delivered by the senior pastors (which he got from God) and was promptly printed and placed into A2 frames and hung all around the church for us faithful followers to know where we were going.
Unfortunately, the senior pastors have recently moved on, leaving these framed vision statements gathering cobwebs with 3 half years till supposed completion.
From what i can gather, that church is on a steady decline away from reaching those target KPI’s and that vision as a whole, as they are still searching for a replacement senior pastor, nearly 8 months since their departure.
I wonder, does the church have to keep accepting the old senior pastor’s vision for them, if it was actually God’s vision????? How do they know? As they accepted it when the old senior delivered it – can they reverse their decision??? Does the replacement senior pastor have to inherit the 2010 vision since it is still valid for 3 more years? Is it valid, or is it null and void? Who makes that decision – or does everyone continue on as if it never existed, and those framed vision statements just one day disappear without any questions?
Methinks vision statements have a lot more to do with us wanting (maybe NEEDING) to know where we are going, ahead of time, and a lot less to do with God needing or wanting us to know.
But for now, God, seems content to allow many of us to continue to scratch this vision “itch”, while he simply waits patiently for the day when we might finally simply fall into his embrace and be satisfied with being in him.
I’m thankful that he allowed me the freedom to discover this in my own time – what grace.
Peyote.
Want Vision? The native Americans have the answer.
I think Bonhoeffer was hitting something key, but perhaps missed the bulls eye somewhat. I don’t think it is visionary dreaming so much as visionary dreaming through the context of individualism and specific models of leadership. Learning to be visionary together as a community is difficult, but valuable as it exists alongside the dynamic tension of life’s grounding realities. Great thought here!
Peace,
Jamie
I think it is often both — that is, I may have a genuine vision from God, which I then turn into an idol. Do I treat it as my own dream, or as God’s dream (which he may invite me into)?
…More personally, I feel I am at a point where God is breaking me of “my dream” and “my need to make it happen.” It’s hard. I keep thinking of Joseph, the dreamer with the big ego, and all he went through.
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Good post Hamo (and welcome back to Blogland). Every one of us who has struggled and felt the pressure to find vision breathes a big sigh of relief. I don’t think vision is the problem, per se. But too often the vision is us and not Jesus! A vision for Jesus is a lot harder to buy in to because he demands a radical change from the inside out. Most other visions are simply behavioural.
I think Bonhoeffer was being intentionally hyperbolic in his statements.
I am sure it is the individualistic ‘my vision’ notion that he is crtiquing rather than the communal discernment vision.
I think he is concerned for the health of a community who are often open to abuse at the hands of a so called ‘visionary’ who is nothing more than a megalomaniac!
The problem for us in churches is that often in its crudest form ‘vision’ is communicated as being what one man gets from God and then everyone els is either called to ‘get behind the senior pastor’s vision’ or go somewhere else.
It becomes a tool of manipulation rather than a source of inspiration.
Perhaps ‘our vision’ is a good thing but ‘my vision’ that I decide is ‘our vision’ is a bad thing?
I think sometimes an idea/dream/vision will get into your system and become part of you so you can’t let it go and have to pursue it. That to me is visionary dreaming and I believe it to be from God.
Think of those who’ve radially changed the way society is and they all had a vision for something better.
Maybe the need for a vision is to have something to dream about without actually confronting the reality that is often boring.
Personally, when I have something big to look forward to I find life much more interesting.
Is there a difference between having a vision and visionary thinking?
Oh, Otherendup – not sure where you are, but if the SP had an 8yr ‘vision’, then I’ll bet that part of it was that they would be around to see it through, and implement it in stages.
If they then left because a more attractive offer came up, then they are fools who have either lied to start with (ie, it was their vision, not God’s)lied now (‘we feel God moving us from/to etc) or started getting scared that ‘God’s Vision delivered through them’ was failing, and a move was required.
I am starting to think that the ‘Vision from God’ type of pastors have learnt that it’s an easier way to get their own way whilst being in control, without people being able to accuse them of being controlling.
Oh – RIP Chris Connolly. A good bloke who deserved better.
Toddy….Othendup, I agree with your comments if the Pastors skipped out on their own accord, but maybe they were pushed out…What did happen?
I am convinced church leaders need to be their for the long haul if they want to make radical change…radical change takes time.
As to Chris C, he deserved another year, but the WA media have a lot to answer for….
to be fair, i think the visionary leadership we see so often produced is a result of us wanting to be led by someonr who knows where they are going – it is easier to follow someone than to work it out ourselves.
i do also unfortunately feel much of the need for a senior pastor to hve a vision is to secure their job – let’ face it, how many churches are going to pay for a senior pastor who doesn’t know where God is leading their congregation ( i can hear a chorus of quotes such as… “the blind leading the blind” etc)
unfortunately, i think we can be our own worst enemy when it comes to vision, and senior pastors are the easy scapegoat . (maybe what i’m getting at is – our need to follow visionary senior leaders may really just be a symptom of a much bigger problem)
Nah, sortof, kinda… knowing where you are going is important.
Knowning what the church intends to do, and having an idea as to how to guide/direct etc is cool.
But does God talk to all SPs about vision for a church that’s frighteningly like the other big churches of the day, and in terms of a year number?
Every SP?
Acknowledging that there is a problem with how it has started to come across, I’m just wondering where it started… is it SP’s who needed new ways of maintaining control of a congregation that was far more likely to be attending less often and have less available hours during the week, or was it congregations/elders etc who needed to attract someone who could actually demonstrate that they had a prayer life, and could help the church develop the same?
Dunno… just sensing more BS within a lot of church groups now than usual… hoping that it’s just me(!?)
Do I sound more cynical today than 6 months ago? Sorry, that’s a bit like asking, do these jeans make me look fat? (“it’s not the jeans, Toddy!!”)
Welcome back (with a vengeance) Toddy!I think you’re right – its not the jeans 🙂
But I believe Bonhoeffer is onto the problem of the individualistic nature of how vision is often spoken of.
It is the SP’s vision and the rest of us need to suck it up and get behind it.
Perhaps to also dream big, but hold vision lightly is another art we need to learn.
Perhaps uncovering the ‘visions’ in our church congregations is another forgotten art we ought to recover also
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“How do you know if your vision is from God or is just something that you would like to achieve – especially when there is an element of pressure to keep on coming up with ‘vision’?”
Usually, it tends not to be from God when it is ” one ” person’s vision. There are rare cases when that does happen, but usually it is one person with an agenda, who forcefully pushes it in his power.
From God, might be more of a communal vision, that is birthed and grows out from within the community…rather than planted ” on top ” of the community. It is nurtured in prayer…there is an urgency…but a willingness for patience and waiting…for affirmation of the community.
Also the vision will always find it self in the context of God’s story…in the redemptive imagination of Jesus.
“Perhaps to also dream big, but hold vision lightly is another art we need to learn.
Perhaps uncovering the ‘visions’ in our church congregations is another forgotten art we ought to recover also”
Beautifully said.
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The problem is that visionary dreaming is not a good phrase for what Bonhoeffer intends to say. Bonhoeffer wrote the book in German in the early 20th century and it was later translated into English. The phrase in English, to me, means reform for success. The phrase lacks any definition of the central motive of the dream. God hates it when we dream or have goals that put us above God and then expect him and those around us to make them reality because we are Christians. The problem isn’t dreaming it’s expecting God to fulfill a dream that is not centered on him. God gives us dreams and visions. We know what dreams are from God because the end goal is to further the Kingdom.