A few years back I pondered jumping ship to a different denomination.
I was in flux with my work roles and open to all possibilities. At that stage it was a Church of Christ I was looking at, in many ways our closest cousins. It never did eventuate but not specifically for denominational reasons.
In the process I discovered that I am actually more ‘Baptist’ than I realised. I am probably not deeply ‘Baptist’ in the theological sense, (although that is there) but more in the sense of affiliation and family. It is a comfortable relationship, much like living in the same suburb for your whole life. It has been my tribe for so long that it would feel a bit odd to join up with someone else.
That’s not to say I wouldn’t do it. I would if I felt the need and occasionally I ask myself if ‘I still belong’. Moving denominations would be much like moving house. It would need to be for a good reason and it wouldn’t be a shift I would make too easily or too often, but it would be doable.
Occasionally I ponder who I would be if not ‘Baptist’ and probably the best fit for me would be the Vineyard scene. Part of that is because of one my closest mates is a Vineyard pastor and part of it is that I do like what they stand for and who they seek to be. I like their kingdom emphasis, their focus on church planting, more demonstrative faith and the work of the Holy Spirit.
As much as they have mellowed somewhat since the Wimber days I still like the vibe of the movement and their theology of the Holy Spirit seems more even keeled than stock pentecostalism. (I feel this is a lack in our conservative denominations but the theology of some of the pentecostal set leaves me cold.)
While its not a big issue for me currently, it is one that lurks. We are a denomination in the midst of significant change and because of the influence of Paul Borden we seem to be adopting a more corporate and ‘one size fits all’ approach to church. From where I stand it seems the focus is on the larger church / CEO model and the space for diversity seems to be decreasing. I could be wrong on this, but it is the feeling I get from around the place.
I am hopeful we will still be a denomination that welcomes experimentation, that champions innovation and encourages those willing to leave the familiar in search of different ways of doing mission and being church, but as of yet my jury is out on that one.
Perhaps this is why I do resonate with the Vineyard (as I perceive it). There seems to be a real openess to new ideas and a valuing of those courageous enough to have a go at different things.
I must say there are a few in my own denomination who have been cheering for us and have been genuinely supportive and they are highly valued and much loved. I can handle those who oppose us and those who don’t ‘get’ us, but the people who I find particularly difficult are the dickheads who cheer us on to our face but secretly despise us or see us as losers.
The again I am dickhead sometimes too…
So if you weren’t part of your denomination who would you join up with?…
i’d probably lean towards heading down the Mennonite avenue, or something with an urban monasticism feel.
what ever it was it would need to celebrate diversity and get off the power trip of needing to control and measure everything.
This would consequentially see me seeking a movement that supported the model of consensus leadership reflected in participatory democracy, rather than representative democracy, which more easily lends itself to a hierarchy of power.
in saying all this, i recognise it stems from a reaction to many of the things I experienced in my home church of 20 years, as it moved to embrace the Borden modus operandi – which is not a critique of Borden, but more a critique of what transpired as a result of his consultation process.
yep, for me it a is small and simple, organic and chaotic, thin but deep, authentic and vulnerable, broken and redeemed attempt to faithfully follow Jesus in and around my neighbourhood and the wider community. But according to some – that doesn’t seem to be enough to qualify as a church let alone a movement 😉
Well there you go – I’m a vineyardian (about as old as they come in Oz: about 10 years), and I must admit that of late I’ve been feeling like the Baptists would almost be where I’d go if I wasn’t staying put.
But for almost the exact reasons you’ve outlined, I’m very happy in Vineyard, and would likely only change if there was a big change in one of the two parties.
A question I’ve practically pondered a lot over the years. A big part of me still feels Baptist, though totally not in the tribal sense. The Baptist I came to faith amongst and trained with do not feel like “my people.” Rather, the connection is more to the history, the idea and the promise.
I’ve had some good, practical connections with Anglicans in the UK, of the semi-charismatic type. But I still feel if I were to jump ship it would be in the radical tradition, like the Menonnites or even Quakers, both of whom I’ve always had warm experiences with.
Of course, the kicker is that the Catholic church never fully embraced the potential of Vatican 2. There’s surely an alternate universe out there where the Catholic church evolved little cells that would have been very welcoming for a guy like me…
But what sort of Baptist church? Man….they are so different it is not funny…and not just in how they operate…but just beyond what Baptists hold to as essentials is a whole heap of stuff that is so radically different…..
Hopefully I have always told you what I think of what you are doing……I dont necesary get you…but I dont oppose you. But then I dont get what a lot of more regular Baptist Churches are doing, to me it seems like a lot of them are living in some sort of backward fantasyland which says that if you keep preaching the word rightly divided people will come…and if they dont…its their fault, so it does not matter. Meanwhile the world goes to hell……
So I hope and pray you lead people to Christ.
Ultimately thats who I resonate with, and I dont care what denomination they are from…for me the litmus test is…are they leading people to Christ?
Eastern Orthodox!!!?!
But there are issues (the nationalism, the fossilisation in parts, the propensity towards superstition by some of the older congregants…umm liturgy in the vernacular would be good even though the liturgy sounds best in Greek or Slavonic)… evangelism/mission has picked up somewhat of late…)
Nope, not swimming anywhere at the mo.
Interesting your comments on Borden. He gets a big run over in Melbourne, not just with the Baptists but a few Anglicans I know of as well.
Its interesting the whole denomination thing, your thoughts are similar to mine. I’m not sure you ever fit perfectly within a denomination, its just that you have a ‘best fit’. A few people talk about ‘tribes’. I’d say that there are more people outside our denomination who are like minded, especially when it comes to different expression. I suppose they are my tribe, and our legitimacy’s is the denomination.
Saint you make me smile!
Scott, I agree that my tribe is often not my denom, but for some reason I feel a sense of loyalty to them.
I guess its like ‘family’. You don’t choose them, but you learn to live with them from the easy to get along with to the whacky. And if you were to change families you just change the set of issues you are going to deal with.
For some the ‘Forge’ mob is their tribe, but we are not a denomination and will never be one (we’d have to get way to organised for that!) While for others Willow Creek is their tribe even if they have also chosen not to denominationalise.
In some of the current tribes (as above) there is much beauty because they allow people from diverse backgrounds to come together across their long established boundaries and genuinely work together.
Perhaps the closeness in spelling between ‘denom’ and ‘demon’ is not an accident 🙂
BTW I think Borden captures the imagination more easily because he is missional but within the current paradigm. There is less need for a dramatic re-think of how we do church and mission. However his mission impetus gets plenty of push back from those who are less oriented that way.
It is not his mission impetus that disturbs me, but rather the harsh approach he takes to people and the degree of pragmatism that accompanies his methodology. If we take an unrestrained ‘Borden’ approach there will be much bloodshed over here as those who cannot cut it get axed.
I feel this particularly because at the moment I would be seen as one of those ‘losers’ who couldn’t cut it. (See http://www.dashhouse.com/darryl/2007/06/transcript_of_the_pastors_are.htm#more) I certainly don’t see myself as a loser and I don’t appreciate being cast in that light by someone who is very influential in shaping my denomination. Hence my level of concern and disturbance at the imbibement of Bordenism…
anabaptist, mennonite probably
rev
Out-on-the-farm Amish.
Quakers would get a gurnsey – and I like the urban mennonite idea.
Mix it all up with a bit of catholic liturgy, incense and wine.
Of course what I have here is a really cool group who like to hang out peacefully, help each other with household chores (“just going outside to raise the barn dear. . .”) and relax over a nice glass of red.
Not sure how I’d manage a deity in with that.
i’ve been at a Church of Christ for the past 14 years. These days I’m splitting my time 50 50 between that COC, and a Baptist church in Brisbane. I find the differences minimal, and core focuses and goals are the same.
The only problem I’m facing is the 45 minute drive to the Baptist church, this may be resolved when I move into Brissie next year…
I nearly did jump ship before I came to my current church. Vineyard was my preferred option, but God said no. When I was looking I had three simple criteria – not Baptist, not a sole or senior pastor, not under 100 (more likely to be in a team in a larger church). I was willing to work for free. Guess God doesn’t care about our lists.
“If we take an unrestrained ‘Borden’ approach there will be much bloodshed over here as those who cannot cut it get axed.” Being in this system, I don’t really see an unrestrained Borden approach – at least among the guys I’m meeting with. I think this is probably partly because of cultural context – we tend not to have the hard headed leadership culture of America (at least as I perceive it). Also, we don’t have the glut of pastors they have – quite the opposite, in fact. There are things I like about Borden’s approach, and things I loathe.
At the same time, I’m learning a little bit from you EMC guys, from afar. But then, I’ve always been a bit schitzophrenic about ministry.
“Quakers would get a gurnsey – and I like the urban mennonite idea. Mix it all up with a bit of catholic liturgy, incense and wine.”
Grendal spunds like you should join the peace tree! 🙂 You’d fit in better than me… (I don’t drink) and we can help with the ‘diety’ to fit that… (there’s this bloke Jesus…)
He’s an article that journo Adrian Glenmorgan wrote about our influences:
http://wecan.be/beencouraged/123/
I’ll send you the forms 🙂
I wonder which denomination Jesus will hang out with at the Restoration of All Things? 😛
Lance it will be with the Anglicans….the one truee church….????
Yeah, Quakers for me as well,
but then being incarnational in an Org like Oxfam would do it as well, (which by the way is great) I shall remain though a pragmatic eclectic – I admit if the Church of Christ did not have the best looking girls in my Youth Group days, I would of joinned the Youth Group that did ….
I dunno Jarrod – my hair won’t lock no matter how much I try.
😛
fricken hippies
Grendel, send me your address and some beans will be coming your way
johnj at forge.org.au
Hamo –
I reckon you would make a great Zen Master.
Disappointing the Borden comment. On further reflection. I think tribe feeling was very much part of the Vineyard prior to Wimber releasing the Church in Australia. The glue was an easy going church with contemporary music. It was the thing that made the pioneers connect and be a tribe. I wonder if it was the same feeling prior to the methodists leaving the Church of England.
this is like the rove question: “who would you turn for?” … well kinda…
i went from baptist to church of christ and didnt notice too much of a difference. then again i was young and didnt know too much on theology.
It isnt something that i am overly concerned with. if God led me out of a church I dont think i would necessarily go looking at the same denomination for a new church, i would go whereever God led me.
Hehe!!
who would you turn baptist for 🙂 I like it
This could get ugly – Ted Haggard style. . .
Take it from you patron saint in cyberspace: you are definitely not a loser Hamo.
Pastors don’t grow churches, God does (or, if you don’t mind the churn rate, and want to have lots of friends on Facebook, try Hillsong marketing).
Everyone keeps saying numerical growth is not a measure of “success” in ministry, but would that we live that truth.
Oh wait, that would be growth.
As a Borden refugee my complaint is not to do with the nature of the model itself. It was originally designed by Carver for the not-for-profit sector and is extremely successful in that situation. Churches have tried to take that model and squeeze it into a church setting and have not appreciated that there is something wrong with the paradigm. The church is a different animal to a not-for-profit organisation. Let’s be creative, let’s learn from the business world and the marketing world and the not-for-profit sector, but let’s go back to the Scriptures and draw on that to develop a leadership framework that is unique to the church.
…and I’ve tried the Anglicans and the Salvos lately and enjoyed them both, but I think I’m happy to stay a Bapo.
I think many groups today are open to new ideas. This is a differnt era. If this were the 50’s a few eyebrows might be raised but today no.
Baptists seem to be more open than any group out there. Who should you join. The England rugby team. Sadly we can use all the help we can get.
is this some kind of disaffected baptist love-in?
Why did they count how many people came to Christ in the early chapters of Acts?
maybe the 11 disciples should have sat in the upper room and drank wine, and studied what a diference Christ had made in their lives, instead of getting out and growing the church….
not everyone thinks numerical growth is not a measure of success, some think it is, and are happy to say so….the more people that come to Christ, the better I say….
Jesus said to make disciples not converts, and said to teach them to obey everything he commanded. So a church full of half hearted converts, that live their lives enslaved to the Aussie or American dream, is not what I call a success. When you read the numbers, don’t forget to read Acts 2:42-47
Having large numbers of people like that will change the world, but like Chesterton said, “the problem is, people have been inoculated with small doses of Christianity, which keep them from catching the real thing”
rev
if I wasn’t a Baptist … I would be, ummmm, I would be …. a a a … be free from the game of denomination and the etiquette it demands – but then again many find security in denomination, especially those who lead
Hugh MacKay in his latest book (Advance Australia Where?} – states humans are herd animals – social creatures, is a denomination a herd? He makes this point as well, in many workplaces, work groups become herds that offer much of the security and identity of domestic herds – the easiest way of connecting with the herd is to graze with the herd …..
“Jesus said to make disciples not converts”
Um…I dont think so.
Matt 28:19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
ummmm, I think so
rev
Hmmm.
Here we have the negative side reformation played out in full!
A million different groups and all of us (me included) looking for a place to land or move to.
Oh for a united Christendom, truly Catholic in belief and diverse in form!
(Or am I dreaming…?)
Converts…to see someone have their mind converted.
Obviously Jesus wants us to make disciples, but some are called to be evangelists, some pastors, some teachers etc etc….
1 cor 3. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
Baptists traditionally have majored on the discipleship part, to the expense of the converting part, in truth I feel, because the discipling part is safer….we have formed a holy fortress and are protecting it, because we are the receptacles of all truth.
In my view, Borden has come along and said that that is not good enough, we need to be growing numerically, we count what is important to us.
He may have been harsh, he may have been blunt, he may have been pragmatic….but then, many prophets in the OT were accused of the very same things.
Take what is good that he brings, and use it. Reject or rerender what is not suitable to your situation.
One day we will all be accountable for what we have done, we might as well start now.
Discipleship requires conversion first. Jesus said to make disciples, not turn converts into disciples. It does no good to have people that say they are Christian, but do not do what Jesus says. Jesus knew a bit more about evangelizing the entire planet than you or borden, and what He did, is He poured his life into a small group of people, every minute of His life. Teaching them about the kingdom, living in the kingdom with them, showing them how to live. And then when others came along, they were able to teach them the same things.
How many people fresh from a Billy Graham crusade are living like acts 2:42-47? In fact how many people in the whole world are living that way? The fact is Jesus told us to make disciples, not converts. This does not mean not to do evangelism, not at all, it means to do evangelism with all of your heart, but to do it Jesus’ way.
rev
I’m with the Rev man … Baptists have not been good at the discipleship part from where I stand, nor the C of C of which I’m more familiar – mind you they have good flyers that get us to fill in the missing word complete the discipleship program … 2 Tim 2:2, we’re all a part of that chain or should be ….
Jesus knew a lot more about evangelism and discipleship than Mark, Borden and Rev put together and times by 1000….so maybe we should just allow each part of the church to do its bit…and allow grace…
and maybe we should allow for the possibility that we can learn from each other.
blessings
Yeah you sure seemed open to learning. Christianity light, is no Christianity at all. You either follow Jesus, or you do not. Saying a prayer and standing in a building singing some songs once a week does not make you a follower of Jesus.
rev
Dudes I am going on Holidays …
Keep the home fires burning!
Gav
Thanks Rev, I am glad you have cleared that up for me….
I struggle with the link – Jesus knew more about evangelism and discipleship …. therefore allow each part of the church to do it’s bit? and the classic allow grace? I know disciple is a New Testament term, is convert? – dinkum I’m not sure – I don’t think so, is it?
convert as a noun I mean not as a verb, which would be like ‘converting’ when Mark E said – ‘Jesus said to make disciples not converts’ – um … I don’t think so. I know he quotes the Rev, but the term convert intrigues me, is that like stage 1?
for me…convert is like repent…neither convert nor discipleship are Greek words, but ‘metanoia’, which we translate as repenetance could just as easily be tranlated as ‘convert’ (in my view) and repenting/converting is a necessary part of the journey….I think the ideal church would be seeing people converted…and then disciple those people.
But there is no ideal church…and so Paul pleaded with the Corinthians to value both the evangelist and the discipler/pastor.
The need for grace is because I do not think anyone knows it all, and so even if someone is not doing the church the way I would, who am I to say they are doing it wrong? I have my own calling to focus on.
Perhaps we are called to disciple and as we do so people are “metanoia-ed” – but you are right we need both the evangelist and the discipler … and the teacher. It’s not really either-or.
you can’t divide everything into special categories. Jesus is our example, and discipleship and conversion all melt into one.
rev
Mark E
Thanks for your defense, not that I need it
So how do your numbers measure up?
Would I be extending your contract?
The Bordster
First of all, belated “Welcome Back!” I haven’t checked on you in a while and what do I find but pages and pages of Hamo. Took me a while to catch up on all that’s going on down there. Now, in answer to your question…I just read through your “Upstream” pages and I don’t really care what denomination you are affiliated with, I’d like to be an “Upstreamer!”
Wow, can we get Mark E and Rev in the same room? (I’m standing well back though).