From Hirschy
“Michael Frost, a friend of mine was recently privy to a meeting with three Chinese leaders from the underground church who were smuggled out to a group of Western leaders about issues they were facing. When they were asked what wanted prayer for they asked for three things: Whilst acknowledging that the government has become more lenient, they were still not allowed to gather in groups of more than fifteen people and that when they grew beyond that they had to split and start a new church. Could the westerners please pray for that? The second issue they asked for prayer for was that they were not allowed church buildings and were thus forced to meet in homes, cafes, karaoke bars, and social clubs. Could the westerners please pray for that as well? The next thing they felt they needed a breakthrough with was that they were forbidden to develop separate organizations where they could collectively train leaders; they were forced to train leaders in the local church. Michael, himself a vice-president of a seminary, says in all good conscience that he simply could not pray for them in this way because he and the group gathered there realized that in many ways the Communist state was forcing the church to remain more true to themselves. Philip Yancy likewise reports on his life-changing trip to China. He says “Before going to China I met with one of the missionaries who had been expelled in 1950. ‘We felt so sorry for the church we left behind,’ he said. ‘They had no one to teach them, no printing presses, no seminaries, no one to run their clinics and orphanages. No resources, really, except the Holy Spirit.’” Yancy wryly concludes “It appears the Holy Spirit is doing just fine.”
So I just finished reading “Back to Jerusalem” and in it the three Chinese church leaders basically say NOT to pray to end persecution because of the same reasons. I wondered if they didn’t have their stories straight 😉 Good book though …
True to themselves?
who is determining that?
As I read the post I thought it was a postive report asking for prayers of praise. With each request I thought, “I like that idea!” As I read further down I thought, “These prayer requests are for help.” Finally, the post led me back to my beginning thought. The Holy Spirit is more than capable. Why is it so difficult for us to let go and give control over to God?
Exciting times in China….
I think Frost’s comment smacks of the same paternalistic attitude that we have often been so quick to condemn in missionaries and church leaders in the past. “I’m not praying for that. I know best what you need, you poor immature creatures. How silly of you to ask me to pray about that.”
I may not have written that so bluntly Shauv….and I also do not doubt for a moment the authenticity and integrity of Frost. For one thing, he is there helping, and I am not. He is there amongst them, resourcing and praying with them….and I am not.
But….that is what I was hinting at in my question. Surely the church should make its own decisions on what it thinks it needs? Does it need us to tell them?
I also do not doubt Frost’s authenticity and integrity, and the conversation we have reported here is, of course, second hand and only a brief part of a wider dialogue. However, I think we need to be careful about the attitude that tells churches in other cultures what “they” should or should not have.
I’m amazed that this quote would be generating such a negative reaction. Shahuv, I take what you’re saying, and there is absolutely a danger in that paternalistic mindset, but I actually think that Mike is recognising that these requests are absolutely a legacy of past (and probably ongoing) Western colonialised thinking (yep – pretty sure colonialised isn’t a word). So I think that as a part of the western church who has told these churches that these institutions are what they need, I think it’s actually a reaction against the paternalistic mindset that Frost is expressing here.
Either way, I like the story Hamo!
I a Chinese house church leader one day comment “Westerners always tell me that they are praying for the persecution of the church in China to stop. I tell them – do not pray for that. If the persecution stops we will stop growing”.
I think it Brother Yun wrote that.
Shavuv – perhaps there is a vibe of ‘I know something you don’t’, but maybe that is also true.
I don’t think his remarks were at all condescending. I think they were more said in fear that the chinese church would be domesticated.
If we know something isn’t loving to share it?…
I like the story. It is probably an illustration I’d like to use regarding the way the church has grown in China and lessons for our mission. Picks up the whole paradigm shift concept.
I must admit though that I felt like Shahuv. Their comment resonated with me immediately.
As I have thought about this I would express it not as paternalism but that suffering is a very delicate thing.
Suffering brings maturity. I believe that and see it as taught in the scriptures. But is it right to celebrate it and seek it out, other than recognising its strange role and acknowledging God’s use of it?
For example; I have seen people develop maturity and depth of character and a fantastic relationship with God as they have suffered hardship or illness. I may read the scriptures and understand that it is their suffering that has shaped them. But, would I ever not join in prayer with them if they asked me to pray with them for healing, security or relief from their suffering?
Wow, good discussion!
I have to be honest…on my first reading this quote (which i did before most of these comments were added) my immediate thoughts were ‘right on, they got it going on in China!’. Then after reading the comments, it did dawn on me, perhaps we do need to ask if we have the right to decide what they do and don’t need prayer for.
Then I remembered…its not actually rare for me to have people ask to ‘pray’ for things I myself am not sure they need. And what do I do in these circumstances? I honour them by praying for what they ask, but in a round about way.
For example, I have had teenagers ask me to ‘pray for a gf’ for them. Serious. Now my usual thought to this is ‘that is definately not what you need’. So i usually pray that God would provide what this teenager needed to fill the ‘gf’ gap. God ‘may’ choose to respond by bringing the right person along (but prob not). This example isn’t the best, but hopefully you get my point.
What are the ‘felt needs’ the chinese are wanting prayer for? Is there a lack of leaders meaning that sometimes when they ‘split’ it causes serious issues?
So perhaps we could pray for God to help them with the 15 person barrier (whether it be that it is lifted, or that God would help more with each split).
Maybe if some churches are meeting in pubs(or other similar locations) and this is causing some people to struggle, perhaps we could pray for ‘suitable’ locations for meeting, rather than church buildings? It may be God would answer this providing church buildings, or a community hall.
Maybe they are struggling to adequately train enough leaders to keep up with each new church, hence the desire to train larger groups. Maybe we could pray for better independent church leadership training?
When someone asks me to pray for something…I may not actually pray specifically for that, I may often look for where those desires are COMING from. Or, I may pray for that, knowing God will provide what is needed that is causing that desire.
Does this make any sense?
I think the Chinese leaders’ concerns are very real.
I am baffled that Frost, a seminary VP, couldn’t pray about the training issue – what’s going on there?
Hamo, could you tell me how many effective leaders in the emergent missionary church have been trained solely within local church settings of less than 15 people, with no access to larger conferences or seminaries? (Serious question, not just stirring the pot, although maybe that a little too).
The Chinese Church is going gang busters, but I’m told they also have huge doctrinal issues that lead to very real pastoral problems. Remember, they are starved of Bibles and Christian training resources – it’s not the West where we have a glut of the stuff and easy access on the web. I can see how trying to manage that with limited resources in a small congregations would be a real big issue.
I guess I’m too much into poetry and creative pros which leaves the story of people’s lives open to interpretation which allows it to be applicable to the life of the reader. I read the post as a story clip into the lives of God’s people in China. I read the words “Could the Westerners please pray for that?” as a simple request that didn’t involve a judgement one way or the other. I liked the repetition of the reques (twice) and it spoke to me about the church in China and about my own personal faith journey. Could we all please pray for that?
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Aah…it is always easier to see the benefits of suffering from the outside. The living of it day-to-day is, of course, a totally different story. It is understandable that those in the midst of suffering and deprivation would seek relief. It is also understandable that those with a wider perspective share it. The tension between those two points is tremendous and requires a mixture of love, grace and mercy.
I loved reading “Back to Jerusalem” and the passion alive in the Church in China. I pray for them to keep their eyes on Jesus and the ear tuned to the voice of the Spirit–so that whatever their circumstances, they will know that God is in their midst and working all things together for the good.
“Not our will, but yours, Father.”